UN-Truth

Excerpts from an interview with Yasser Abbas in Ramallah – 18 December 2008 – by Marian Houk – Part 3
Other excerpts:
Part 4: Separation of Powers in Ramallah
Part 2: Fatah and Hamas – what’s the problem?
Part 1: Fatah and Hamas – and the Abbas family house in Gaza

Question (Marian Houk):  Let me start by asking you what you do here, what your business is?

Answer (Yasser Abbas):  Well, I’m a civil engineer by profession.  I manage a group of companies called, mainly, the Falcon Holding Group that represents a few companies that deal with construction management, contracting, trading, and insurance – basically, that’s it – in Palestine and outside Palestine.

Q: Do you spend most of your time here, or are you mostly outside?

A: No, I’m most of the time outside. [But] I’m based in Palestine.  My family is here.  If you want to call where’s my home – home is Palestine for me, and that’s where my main business originally originated.  That’s where my family lived.  That’s where my kids went to school, and one of them is still in school.  My wife is around always, all the time.  [In the second part of this interview, published yesterday, Yasser Abbas also said: "the second company I established in my life was in Palestine, in Ramallah, 1996, when Mahmoud Abbas was not the President, not the Prime Minister.  He was Secretary-General of the PLO.  I decided to open a company, and to go and compete like any other company in the market.  And there you go, it happened.  And from 1996 until 2000, we had those rosy years that we’ve never seen back again.  Everybody was working.  So we went and started bidding, and we started making relations with international companies coming from outside, like any other engineering office.  So, that’s the way I started, and that’s the way I do business here, in Palestine.  I can claim that all my projects that I take are competitive bidding.  Nobody has any privilege to me, personally, to come and tell me, 'I will give you this', or 'I will give you that'.  Nobody has any power to do so.  I have no power over anyone, and I mean anyone, to tell them, 'This project is mine, nobody touches it'.   Or, 'I have a concession on such-and-such sector, and nobody touches'.  I don’t have that.  I challenge, I challenge, though you, publicly, anyone – anyone – who can come to me and point his finger at me to tell me, 'I, or we, or such-and-such agency or ministry, gave you the job', or 'I have a concession on any sector of this economy'.  I challenge him. ]

Q: What did you study?

A: I studied civil engineering in Washington State University, in the state of Washington, and graduated in 1983.

Q: And you worked with Consolidated Construction Company – was that your first job out of school?

A: No, my first job was with my uncle’s company – that is, the uncle who put me through school before high school, and in university, and I worked for him in Qatar, in his contracting company for three years, and he is one of the largest contractors over there.  And then I worked for him also in Canada for six years.  [Yasser Abbas added later: My education, fully, was paid by my uncle, who was a contractor in Doha – too bad I don’t have the checks with me to prove it … I don’t have the proof with me – an uncle of mine, who has been educated in the States, he is a very big contractor, the one I told you about, that I worked for him for nine years, he’s the one who put me through school, he’s the one who put my late brother Mazen into school, and he’s the one who paid for the education of my younger brother, he is the one that we worked for, for nine years, he is the one who made us what we are, at the beginning. And I don’t owe PLO or Fatah any penny.]
And then I joined CCC, which is Consolidated Contractors, in Abu Dhabi in 1992 to 1996.

Q: Do you have any continuing relationship with them?

A: Yes, I do, they are my business colleagues, we work a lot together in Abu Dhabi, in Dubai, in Qatar and everywhere.  We don’t do anything in Palestine now.
…
Q: You said you don’t have anything – or CCC doesn’t – have anything in Palestine at the moment?

A: No, CCC I don’t think they have any construction business or any contracting business in Palestine these days.  They don’t.  Nope.

Q: But they are still involved in the Gaza gas project?

A: The Gaza gas … [no] not the gas project, the power plant, because they are … I don’t know how much ownership they have in this project, but they are partially owners, and they are the management company of the power plant, and they are the partial owners of the gas project, yes, with British Gas and the Palestinian Authority.

Q: And, when the options can be exercised, CCC has, what, ten percent, or will have ten percent?

A: Uh, I don’t know, I’m not sure of the percentages.

Q: Were you involved with CCC when these projects were being negotiated, and developed?

A: The gas project, never.  The power plant project, ah, um, my involvement is that I was one of the Palestinians that really tried to push for a power plant because we had major shut-downs, a major load that we didn’t have in Gaza.  And I was one of the persons that really tried to push, at one point in time, the late Chairman Arafat and also with my father, that really we want this power plant to take place, and to be built, you know.  I mean, we want something.  We want to have to start generating power in Palestine so that we stop relying on the little load that we get in Gaza, because we always have shut-downs, we get always electricity of four hours, five hours, sometimes they just cut it down, they just shut it down, and we really had an interest in having the project.  But, I was never, ever, thinking at that time that I will have a part in building that power plant.

Q: Why do you think the power plant was bombed in June 2006?

A: Uh, I think you have to ask our Israeli counterparts, and our American counterparts.  At that point in time I was in Washington, and I really told the American administration, you know, not even your investment in that part of the world is being protected.  That power plant had the American flag on it, and the U.S. government had an insurance policy of $50 million dollars placed on that power plant, guaranteed by OPIC [the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, an agency of the U.S. government that provides political risk insurance to encourage American direct investment in emerging markets], and at that point in time I told them, ‘well, welcome, your investment has been bombed by the Israelis’.  It was the kind of capital punishment that Israel normally does.  They never did it at that point in time, but in June, when Shalit, I think, was kidnapped, they bombed that power plant, and it was stupid attack to take place.

Q: The only public explanation that I’ve seen was given by Mark Regev, at the time the Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman (now he’s the spokesman for the Prime Minister) who said that it was to make Gaza dark, so that it would be difficult to move Shalit around…

A: That’s a too-naïve excuse, I think, for anybody who has a little bit of brains, to believe.  You can move him in the total darkness – that’s not a problem here.

Q: Well, what do you think they were trying to do by that attack?

A: I don’t know, I have no idea.  I have no explanation.  At that point in time I was really thinking of the alliance between Israel and America.  You know, we were always thinking that, you know, the Presidential headquarters will be bombed, but this power plant will never be bombed because America has their flag on it.  You know what I mean?  At the end, there wasn’t any protection, on any investment.  So, I have no idea.  I wish I knew.

Q: Was the American insurance policy exercised?

A:  Well, the damage was not actually as per se, as the cost of the $50 million dollar of the insurance policy.  But the Americans, they paid it.  As far as I know, they paid a good portion of that money to rebuild.  The damage was not huge.  I think they damaged some tanks, some fuel, you know.  But they did not touch the really expensive equipment there – which is the generators, the transformers, things like that that were really costly, tens of millions of dollars those machines will cost.  But they were only reserve tanks or something.

Q: Are you sure they didn’t?  I thought they took out the transformers one by one, and the generators.

A: Maybe to repair them, and they took the time to repair them.  But I cannot quote the real damage, how much did it cost.  I can ask for that number, but I don’t know, I think it was only five or ten million dollars damage, the whole thing.

Q: This is the kind of information that’s very, very hard to find here.

A: No, no, no, no.  If you want the number, later on, I can give you the number.  I will call my friend in the Energy Authority, the PEA, and I can get exactly the number (amount) of the damage – that’s not classified information … Omar Kittani.  He’s the one who knows, the one who should know.  He should tell you.  He knows.  He’s the one who repaired it, with the Egyptians.

Q: The Egyptians?  I thought it was the donors.

A: No, the Egyptians actually did the work.  The donors paid the money, but the Egyptians are the ones who did the work, because they have the expertise to do it.  They were the closest, they were the fastest, and they did a very good job to repair the power plant in a short period of time, to start operating.  It was easy for them to come in and out.
…
Q: But if the donors were paying for the repair, and yet there was an American insurance policy, how does that work?

A: Well, I don’t know, maybe … I don’t know how the internal situation goes.  But I know two things:  OPIC had a guarantee on that power plant, and I know that power plant has been repaired.  Details about whose money, I really do not know.  But I know who did the work, because I know the company, I know them, and they are a very good company, and they did a lot of good work, fast work, and I met with the guy and I really thanked him very much.  I met him in Egypt and I told him you did a great job, in a short period of time, thank you very much.  That’s the only thing I know about the power plant.
…
Q: The situation of the power plant since the decision of the Israeli government to declare Gaza an enemy entity is terrible, and I don’t know how many times – a dozen times? – it’s shut down for lack of fuel.  It’s been slowly strangled …

A: Well, you know, the Nahal Oz checkpoint or crossing point, or entry point, to Gaza has always some problems over there.  You know, I’ve been bombed a few, many times, from Gaza.  Israelis sometimes, you know, they always like to really have punishment, you know, on the Palestinians, you know, they’re trying to push the Palestinians to erupt in the face of Hamas, but it’s not working out.  I can sense it as a capital punishment to the Palestinians, that we will let you live in darkness.  I think the Palestinians all over they got used to it, so it doesn’t have any effect.

Q: There is also a lot of confusion about what’s really happening.  For the past year, actually since the beginning of 2008, it really hasn’t been clear — who’s doing what, and why, regarding Nahal Oz transfer point and the power plant; and who’s paying for what, and who’s not paying for what; who’s taking the fuel, and who’s not taking the fuel.  Can you shed any light on the situation?

A: Well, what I know is that the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah, represented actually by Prime Minister Fayad, is paying the expenses, with the instructions of President Abbas, that everything Gaza needs – because Gazans are Palestinians, one way or another, you like it or you don’t like it, they are Palestinians – we are responsible for them, that is, the Authority.  We are paying for the electricity, for the water in Gaza, the medical treatment, the education and all their expenses.  It is not their problem that Hamas took over, and you know, with a coup, by military force.  All the supplies that is needed for Gaza has been given to Gaza.  Whether Hamas is stealing the supplies of Gaza, the oil from Gaza, I really have no idea, whether they are collecting from the merchants there, or they are collecting money, eventually I will not be surprised, you know, that they would do it.  But, in the end, the major thing that has been happening is that the responsibility of the people in Gaza is the President’s responsibility, in all ways. Fifty-eight percent of the funds that come to the Palestinian Authority is spent in Gaza, simply.

Q: How much of that is for salaries?

A: Uh, I have no idea.  I don’t know, I cannot give you a ballpark figure.

Q: Of the money that comes into Ramallah, I think most of it goes for salaries.

A: Ah, yes, some of it even goes to some projects in the budget, but they have not been spent yet, because many times they really need to spend money for the salaries first, then development projects come later.
…

[In the second part of this interview, published yesterday, Yasser Abbas also said: "Gaza’s not producing, zero.  Meanwhile, they’re consuming 58 percent of the budget, in return for nothing.  Gaza should have been a production place: 1.5 million [people], they should produce taxes and VAT, as it used to be before, and it was a major contributor to the Authority, Gaza was.  But now Gaza’s not doing any work.  So, simply, there’s no merchant, no trading, between Gaza and the rest of the world.  I don’t know how much they were producing at that time, but they are non-productive now.  So, you have 58 percent of your budget, you have been spending against zero return.  Meanwhile, the rest is produced by the West Bank.  So that’s why we have a failure here – we have a deficit, eventually, on the budget every year, or every month“]

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[Also in the second part of this interview, published yesterday, Yasser Abbas said that after the Hamas rout of Fatah/Palestinian Preventive Security Forces in Gaza in mid-June 2007, he "had the great lost [the greatest loss], money-wise, out of all the Palestinians, as an individual  … [This loss was to my] Falcon Tobacco Company – we are the importers of British-American tobacco.  We have negotiated this, and it is one company, and it is not the monopoly of the importation of cigarettes in the world.  I hope you understand this.  British-American is one company.  Philip Morris is another company.  Gauloise is another company.  And all the other importation from Israel is another company.  So. it’s a big, broad market.  BAT – British-American Tobacco – happens to be one of the largest in the world.  We are their importers since nine years.  Hamas went into my stores and robbed all my stores, and our loss was greater than any other.  Q:  They took cigarettes?  A:  Yes, and they sold them in the market.  That’s one of the things.]
…

Q: Can I ask you about the Gaza gas deal which BG, as I understand it, is negotiating.  But it can’t be negotiating in a void, without clearing its negotiating positions with the Palestinian Authority?

A: As far as I know, the deal has already been signed with the Authority, on the price, on who owns what, between the Palestinian Investment Fund (PIF) and the BG.  It’s all, all ready since a few years.  But the wells were not really used yet, because we don’t know which market it’s going to, whether it’s Israel or to Egypt or has to be exported – we have no idea about how to execute these contracts.  And, you know, it’s a loss on the BG side, definitely, because since a few years nothing has been done on these wells.   Because I don’t really know about how the deal goes through because I was not involved, and I don’t know.

Q: The people who are involved say they don’t want to talk about it because they say it’s a commercial negotiation and these details should be secret.  But, in fact, this gas is the property of the Palestinian people.

A: Yes, it’s the property of the Palestinian people.  But it’s logical that you bring an international company.  When you go to Abu Dhabi and you want to explore a well in Abu Dhabi, or you go to Mauritania and you want to explore a well in Mauritania, then the Mauritanian government will come and make a deal with company X, like BG or like Exxon, or just name it.  They go for 50-50 income, or 40-60, depending on how deep it is, depending on how difficult it is, depending on whether it’s onshore or offshore.  You know, the deals are like that, so it’s normal. It’s normal that they don’t want to give out some information on that deal when I don’t have it myself.  I don’t have that need to know what is the details of the project.  I know that the government has a share in it, and the Palestinians have a good share, and they’re happy about it.  But it has not been executed, so it’s not easy to talk about the subject now, and I don’t know when it’s going to be.  I don’t think we will ever be able to use it as long as Hamas has taken Gaza hostage, so it’s too early to discuss …

Q: Is the main problem Hamas, because they said they wanted to be part of the negotiations and to re-open the terms that I think they call “colonialist”.

A: Hamas can call anybody colonialist.  You know, I mean, I wouldn’t worry so much about their opinion.  And the only thing is that, whether Hamas like it or they don’t like it, these wells will not be operated because we don’t have the proper market for them.  We have not finalized the deal, whether it’s with Egypt or with Israel, ok?   And if we want to use those oil wells, and we want to execute the wells – also they are in the middle of the sea, so you can easily use them, start operating them, whether Hamas wills or whether it doesn’t will, you know?.  It’s not up to them to decide whether they want to do it, or not.

Q: From what’s known about the negotiations, and the structure of the deal, so far, the Israelis are very eager to continue the deal.  It’s they who have repeatedly asked British Gas to come back the two times that they stopped negotiations (right after the disengagement … and then again at the end of 2007 or beginning of 2008 … ).  The one thing everyone has been insistent on – the Palestinians, and the BG side – is that the fair market price of the gas should be paid – by contrast to the deal that Israel made with Egypt, which now is under challenge, not only from members of the Egyptian Parliament, who have actually taken it to court, arguing that the price is so below the market rate that it’s simply exploitation.  And it’s a very long term deal – 15 years + five years, at a quarter of the present market price, or maybe a third, because it’s dropped recently.

A: Yeah, well, I mean, wait until the price of oil and gas drops a little bit more, then those guys in the Parliament will really eat their hearts out because they have a good deal.  You know, the price of oil was what, at that point in time?  $60 dollars per barrel, or $50, I don’t know, a year and a half ago?  And yeah, when it went up to $150, yes, they have a right to go to the parliament, to the court, and they say, this is not a good deal, we are selling at $2 now, the price of gas is $7 or $8 per … , you know, and then, now, when it drops below $2, then they will be quiet.  So these guys, apparently, they know about economy as much as I know about Chinese language, maybe, and I’m really sorry for some parliament members, how they make fun of themselves.  They were right, because the momemtum was high, the prices were high.  So they say, how come you made that deal, and who authorized you to make that deal for 15 years?  Well, all gas deals and oil deals they are not made for six months, or three months on any deal.  This is on the Egyptian part, as far as I am concerned.  Most of those guys are short-visioned.  But as far as we are concerned, back here in Palestine, we have no deal on our gas wells until now, as far as I know.  Israelis did not ask us to come back, did not ask British gas to come back.  Israelis, they kept playing a game – ‘you don’t want us to buy your gas?  We’ll go to Egypt’.  They go to Egypt: ‘you don’t want us to buy your gas, we’ll go to the Palestinians’.  And they keep playing this kind of game that really made – I believe, I don’t know, from the information that I have: you know, we as Palestinian businessmen we like to chat, what’s happening here and there – so I know that the British Gas people they got sick of all the wheeling and dealing of Israel, and they just closed their offices [n.b., in Herzliya, while the Ramallah office is still open] and they left.  So, that’s the main reason.  If Israel is interested in buying the gas, and they are really serious, British Gas is there, our Palestinian Investment Fund is there, they are the main player, also the CCC people are they, so they know how to contact them, if they are really willing to strike a deal.  They are they, there can talk to them.

Q: Just one question about the Egyptian El-Arish to Ashkelon pipeline – it must pass through Gaza’s territorial waters?

A: Uh, yes, I heard that would be the situation, and if the situation was good and clean in Gaza, we did not have the coup in Gaza, the Authority and everything was fine, we could have had a gas connection to that pipeline, and we would have had a supply from the Egyptians, because you know that’s a different kind of gas that we really need to use.  It’s a completely different kind of gas than we have in the wells that we’re going to sell to Egyptians.  Meanwhile, the El-Arish to Ashkelon pipeline, even if it goes in the Gaza waters, what’s the problem?

Q: Well, but, it must have been negotiated or cleared with somebody in the Palestinian Authority?

A: I have no idea.  I don’t know, I don’t know.

Q: But how – they just can’t just build a pipeline though an area that was allocated to the Palestinian Authority in the Oslo Accords …

A: Yes.

Q: …without clearing it?

A: I don’t know.  Well, if it was not negotiated between us and the Egyptians, you know, they are really doing us a lot of favors by selling us a good gas price, I think it’s a low price, and one of the good donations from the Egyptian government to the Palestinians is gas, so they are supplying us with gas at a very low price, or something like that I’m not really sure about…

Q: Where are you getting this gas?  Is it coming to the West Bank?

A: Maybe it is coming to the West Bank, yes. Yep.  And maybe to Gaza also — part of the power supply to Gaza.

Q: They [Egypt] are supplying part of the electricity, to Rafah …

A: Five or ten percent – 17 MW, that represents five to ten percent of the needs of Gaza.
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Q: But, according to the structure of the [Gaza gas] deal, as I understand it, and I could be wrong, is that the gas would be pumped out of the Gaza Marine wells. It would go to Ashkelon [in Israel].  It would then be processed, and a small part of it would come back in another pipeline, back from Ashkelon, to Gaza City.  And the original idea, I think, was that the gas offshore Gaza would be used to fuel the power plant, and maybe a desalination plant, I don’t know.

A. I don’t have any idea.  That’s a little bit way too technical for me, so I don’t know.

Q: I mean, but there are questions about if you have the gas going from …

A: What I know is that the gas we have underground, Israel can take 90 percent of it.  We are maybe in need for ten percent processed, or maybe less than that.  We have no capability to process that.  So eventually somebody has to process it and send it back to us.  And that’s going to be our neighbor, which is Israel.  So, Israel will process that percentage and send it back.  How, which way, what are the details, I really don’t know.  But this is the general information that I know.  The majority of the wells we don’t really need, as far as Palestinians are concerned.  I know Israel is in a bad need for that, so they are going to be the market for it.

Q: Yes, Benjamin Ben Eliezer has said many times that, Israel, being the country it is, and in the neighborhood that it’s in, it needs to diversify its sources of energy supply – he said it needs at least five, in case several of them are cut off, they can depend on alternatives.  So, he’s been consistent from last year, from November when BG announced the freeze, from his statements in the Jerusalem Conference in January, to statements he made at a meeting at the Jerusalem Center for Policy Affairs over the summer sometime – he wants to pursue the Gaza gas deal.  In the summer he said he hoped he could make an imminent announcement.

A: Ah, well, as I said, if they are willing to really commence this deal, we have not run away.  Our people are there to negotiate.  Our people are there to implement – let them call each other and they can meet, and they can solve it.  I know that our party, and the PEA [Palestinian Energy Agency], are in very good relations with Mr. Ben Eliezar, and I know that our Minister, Dr. Kittani, meets up with him every once in a while, and they are in very good relations.  But, where is the deal now?  I really have no idea.  I’m not really interested in knowing.  If the information comes to me, well, I just receive it, and I’m telling that to you.  But I don’t have more.

Q: The other side – moving away from the gas itself, under the sea, and the pipelines – the other side of the deal is, what happens, and what decisions are made in Ramallah? Because the Palestine Investment Fund is in charge of negotiations, though I understand that Dr. Kittani will have the final word to say, at least from technical aspects, and whether or not it’s acceptable.

A: That’s true.  He is the technical man behind all of this.  And the [Palestine] Investment Fund [PIF], represented by Dr. Mohammed Mustafa, is the CEO of the Fund, and he and Dr. Kittani, are on very, very good terms.  They always meet, they always talk.  I saw them many times meeting.  They are coordinating together, they are reporting directly to the President on all that’s happening, they have no differences whatsoever.    And eventually the decision has to be joint.  I won’t say it’s one of them – no, it has to be joint.  And they are on good terms, so they can have a joint decision easily.  That’s what I know.

Q: But, the question is about the decision-making – both in terms of the deal, which I think they’ve said what their parameters are (they want the market price, and they want guarantees there will be no cut-off in supply, but I’m sure those guarantees have been made before in the history of the Palestinian Authority and there have been several times, due to political problems between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, interruptions in very vital supplies, and now Gaza is a prime example).  But, about the decision-making itself: the PIF was set up to bring transparency to the investments that Yasser Arafat had, and that his economic adviser, Mohammed Rashid, made on his behalf – and those funds, those assets, formed the basis of the Palestine Investment Fund.  But there was also, at that time, there was also a representative of the PA, or a Minister of the PA, on the Board — and there no longer is.

A: Ahm … The Palestine Investment Fund, as far as it is concerned now, and what I am concerned about, is the current situation.  As far as I know, the PIF has published their budget, their financial statements, yearly.  I saw one printed.  Actually I was with the President when Dr. Mustafa handed it over to the President, and he started explaining it to him, and it’s on the ‘net, so that if anybody wants to see it they can get it, they have hard copies, they can see it anywhere.  I don’t know much about the history of the PIF – what kind of investments they were doing, in full details.  I know some of the people who are on the board.    I know that this Investment Fund was going to be completely isolated from the government, at one point in time.  We wanted it, really – it’s to the Palestinians’ benefit that it is completely isolated from the government (and it is now completely isolated from the government) simply because Hamas took over.  They were the government at one point in time.  And we didn’t want people in Hamas to start really digging into the national fund, the national investment of the Palestinians, you know?  We don’t, we cannot hold them, we never really trusted them, to hold them trustee on our funds.  Imagine now, you know.  So, definitely, we don’t, we wouldn’t want anybody to be of the government involved.  That’s why, the board — there wasn’t a major change in the board.  There was a change of two or three people who went out as Ministers, and that’s basically it.  The CEO has changed.  The only party that went out of the PIF board is the government, and one maybe private sector.  Because it’s led by a board that’s majority private sector, so that it’s called an investment.  Eventually, any government employee does not know about investment as much as the private sector knows.  What we want is to improve the fund.

Q: Palestine is a unique situation, and the history of the Palestinian national struggle is unique.  But I don’t know of any other situation in the world where an investment fund operates and holds some of what people would call the patrimony, the financial patrimony, the investments, for the Palestinian people.  I can’t think of any other parallel, anywhere else in the world.

A: Well, we are, you know, we are, Palestinians, all over the history, we are very successful.  The Palestinians are one of the most successful businessmen, given the situation that they were living in.  You know, I mean, we are very successful businessmen, and I can say it in a very loud voice.  Everybody knows that.  Nobody can deny that.  It’s very simple: we are really Grade A businessmen.  We are the people who built most of the Middle East.  So, we know that.  Our fingerprints are in the U.S., not only in the Gulf area.  We are the most, the highest-educated people per capita, compared to population, in the world.  So, I mean, eventually, it’s a unique situation. We have had difficulties in the past, yes,  but we are really, you know, if we really mean to make sure that this investment, this national investment to be placed in the proper places, we know how to do it, and where to do it, and how to manage it, or how keep it.  So, as long as it is well-kept and away from any government, believe you me.  You know, if any government really touches such investment, as far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t, it’s not going to really keep it intact.

Q: You know, the basic question about these people is: who elected these businessmen to make decisions about the Palestinian peoples’ financial patrimony?

A: Well, who elected these people?  Uh, you know, the majority of the Palestinian business community that are represented in Palestine and internationally, I think they are represented on that board.  So nobody can deny the – maybe you don’t agree with 20 percent of the board, or a few out of the names, but in general most of the board are people who are spotless, they are very well respected business people, and I can claim they have no agenda when it comes to any decision for the investment.  So they are taking their decisions in for the benefit of the fund itself, not in any other way, as far as I can see it.

Q: The structure of the deal, as I understand it, for the Gaza gas is that the revenues, the Israelis seem to want to take taxes.  Everybody wants to take taxes.  But the Israelis say – I don’t understand this myself – that if you want to sell something to them, you have to pay them taxes.  OK, so they want to take taxes.  Will the PA also want to take taxes?  I don’t know.  But, in any case, the revenue will go to the PIF, which will then not turn it over to the coffers of the government, but which will reinvest it as their board, which are private businessmen, decide.  And this is a major, major asset of the Palestinian people.

A: Well, you know, I mean, we are really confused over how the world, they want to look at us.   As far as the government is concerned, for the past 13, 14 years, we have been stamped with corruption.  Until now, wherever we go, they talk about our corruption.  And they know, deep inside, that this cracked [broken] record, in my terminology, has been played all around these years.  But, whoever you talk about, they’re like all my visits sometimes to the U.S., they still talk about corruption.  They are still talking that four years ago.  And we keep telling them, our government has no corruption. OK.  Our government has no corruption.  We have the financial statements, printed on the internet.  Go and look at it.  If you don’t want to look at it, that’s your problem, but just stop this slogan, ok?  Now, if we went and took this investment from the corrupted government, and we put it under the umbrella of businessmen who don’t really look at this investment as their hotcake that they want to split, which is not the case at all – I mean, we put it under their umbrella, their decision, their command, and we are at the end, you know, people still don’t like it.  At the end, whose umbrella should we put it under – Israel’s umbrella?  Shall we give it to Hamas to take care of?  Shall we give it to whom?  I mean, we say, we were labored with corruption in government.  We removed the government from the board.  Now we have clean, honest businessmen, who have their millions and billions of dollars outside Palestine, the majority of it is outside Palestine.  And they are really working and they are trying inside Palestine to help, and they are finding the best investments for this fund to grow – and we still don’t like it, and we still don’t trust it?  We have no other means of protecting this. ‘Who chose those people’? — I mean, ‘Who chose those people’?  These people were really recommended from so many, and it was the sole decision of the President to choose them.  And they were the ex-board, before.  The majority of them are the ex-board, if I’m not mistaken.  Who moved out?  One or two?   One or two, and two ministers, and that’s it.  The rest of the board are the same.  Yeah, they are basically the same.

Q: Now, but if you look at who the people are, who are on the board – I’m not criticizing, I’m asking questions – if you look at them, every one of them is sitting on each other’s board of directors.  There’s some kind of … there’s some kind of … it’s somehow different from what people in other parts of the world think is normal.

A: Well, I think this other part of the world, or other people of the world, let them think about their own corruption, that brought the whole economy of the world down.  We don’t accept any kind of corruption claims to us these days, because the whole economy of the globe, the global economy, has been knocked down by corruption, either in the U.S., or in the Gulf, or in Europe, or in maybe Canada, or just name it.  So. I mean, let everybody go and clean their own garbage, before they look at us.  Luckily, luckily, everybody knows that the whole economical crisis that’s in the world now is due to corruption in each single country, even in Japan – not only in Palestine.  So, we are the least hurt, at least, with the damaged economy.  You know, I mean, by international standards, the West Bank mainly is the least hurt.  I came back here, after two months I’ve been away, and the prices of land are growing up, the prices of apartments are growing up – maybe the stock market is going down, because you know everybody looks at the stock market.  But, you go and want to buy land, this is the only county that’s going up, everybody is going down — simply because we have a limited kind of corruption. We don’t have it anymore.  It’s been limited.   Everything is mainly under control.  I cannot say we have 100 percent control on corruption that we had before – no—but I can claim it’s in the 90’s, it’s in the high 90’s, because it’s not easy for anyone to go and really start, you know, having any sort of corruption in any project that comes up.  It’s not that easy, it’s not that easy anymore.  Everybody knows that the President is holding the stick on everybody’s head, ok?  And he always threatens with that stick, so they know.  It’s not a joke.  As a result, we don’t accept the corruption slogan anymore.  After the past three months, I can’t accept it.  I personally I will attack anyone who talks about the Palestinian corruption, back, fire back at him – even, just name it, where?  I don’t want to name a country by itself, then people will say, yes, the Palestinian President’s son is attacking this country.  But, all over the world, why did the collapse happen?  Corruption.  Come on, it’s corruption.
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Q: Before we finish, I’d just like to follow up with a question or two on something we touched on earlier – and that is, about the Palestinian Investment Fund, and what’s done with the receipts from the eventual, future receipts from the sale of Palestinian gas.  Don’t you think … there should be some public discussion.  Should the Palestinian Investment Fund be able to take the revenues that belong to the Palestinian people and have music concerts in Ramallah?  Should they be able to make these kind of decisions?  Or, shouldn’t there be some other public input into this process?

A: You mean, renegotiate the gas contracts again?

Q: No, I’m talking about the role of the PIF, and the receipts – and, yes, the gas contract is not linked to how the PIF functions, exactly, or how it makes its investment decisions.  But it’s just decided that it will make its investment decisions, and it will reinvest the proceeds in – what, I don’t know – apartment buildings, or mortgages, or music concerts in Ramallah, or mobile telephone companies, or I don’t-know-what, without any popular, without any input from the Palestinians whose …

A: Well, I don’t think – if you want to have an investment authority, a national investment authority, I don’t think you should make it to the public to decide how they should really have the PIF operates.  Because, simply, you will have 2,000 opinions, even if you go to the 2.5 million people in Ramallah or in the West Bank to really have that discussion of how to do it. I don’t want to hear, also, opinions from some people that they will tell you, yeah, I have this type of investment, and I really want you to invest in it – and at the end, when you are losing, they will tell you, “Well, I cannot be held responsible, you know I just gave you a suggestion”.  Excuse me, this is not the way.  I mean, tell me, in any country in this world, who their investment, or their national investment, or their national grant or security for the country is being put to the 250 million people in the U.S. to decide – well, where do you think we should really invest my part of the money…

Q: I think, if there were a PIF in the United States, it wouldn’t last.  It doesn’t exist.  It doesn’t exist – there’s no private entity that makes decisions about public monies that I can think of anywhere in the world.  In Switzerland, for example, they had a large gold reserve, and at one point they wanted to sell part of it off.  And then they were going to have a referendum about what to do with it…

A: Well, you have a Congress there [in the U.S.], and what did they do at the end, huh?  You tell me. The whole country went down the drain, and what happened?  You have a senate and you have a congress, and what did they do?  They put the whole world into the drain – am I correct? … Since you don’t have any sort of a PIF over there, you have somebody like the congress or the senate who decides where everybody has to go, right?  And how the economy should be structured.

Q: But we’re talking about public money.  Public money!  The revenues from Gaza gas is public money, it shouldn’t be private money.

A: I don’t know.  We are, as far as how things have been structured in the PIF, it is to the best benefit of the Palestinians, as far as I’m concerned.  The way I see it is that the PIF are investing the money in the best interests of the Palestinians.  They have, as I told you, their financial statements published.  Anybody who doesn’t like it, he can come out every single day, in the media, and say, “Well, you are running the PIF in a wrong way.  I have the magic way that will make you make billions out of millions”.  Great!  Come forward, show me, you know?  But, people are talking about dreams – and we are not willing to listen to dreamers.

Q: But this is exactly the kind of discussion that Palestinians don’t have.  I don’t know why.  I don’t know if it’s because the newspapers are linked to political parties, or because the people are afraid, or because they’re annoyed…

A: No, no, no, no – people are not afraid, excuse me.  You can say anything that you like – people are not afraid.  People have the full right to talk about anything they want in this country.

Q: But can they organize?  Can they form a group to discuss PIF?

A: Definitely they can.  Definitely they can.  You can initiate that, if you like. You want?  I will help you with that.  But, I’d like to see where are those intellectuals that they, themselves, will come out with a really good conclusion – how we do invest the PIF’s money, how we show that the Board of the PIF, Dr. Mohammed Mustafa, are really wasting this money, and it’s not being really invested very well, or managed very well.  You have something about the PIF – I don’t know what’s wrong with …

Q: There’s something about the structure…

A: Why are you asking me this – maybe you think I’m the one, the mastermind …

Q: No, because you’re willing to talk about it.

A: No, I’m not willing to talk about it.  I don’t want to talk about it … Why are you jumping to the future?  The Gaza gas is still underground!  We did not get the Gaza gas out, number one.  We did not sell it, number two.  We did not collect their money, number three, ok?  The PIF did not get their share, in order for us to really think, what is the PIF going to do with it.  So, it’s very simple.

UPDATE: According to a press release dated 14 January 2009 and posted on its website, “The Palestine Investment Fund (PIF) Board recently discussed the details of President Mahmoud Abbas’s executive decision to make official changes to the Board of Directors, in addition to appointing a public body comprised of 30 members to increase participation from the public and private sectors. When the decision was announced, the PIF Board of Directors agreed that this resolution was decisive and is in the best interest of the Fund, underpinning the positive implications of this decision to its future. The executive decision entails the appointment of Dr. Mohammed Mustafa as the new Chairman of the Board, succeeding Mr. Shukri Bishara. It also encompasses the appointment of Mr. Azam Al Shawa to the Board of Directors as a further member to the current six members. The appointments are also in addition to a new resolution calling for the formation of a public body comprised of 30 members. The selections made to the body are well-known, prominent Palestinian businesspeople from both the public and private sectors. The body encompasses many years of combined experience which will prove valuable for the PIF and its future activities … Remarking on his appointment as the new Chairman of the Board, Dr. Mustafa said: ‘I would like to express my gratitude to President Abbas for his faith and confidence in me, and hope to serve with dignity and distinction’. Dr. Mustafa added that he will work closely with the Board of Directors and the 30 member public body to continue the exceptional work of the PIF and accomplish further impressive progress and achievement which will positively impact the national economy. Commenting on the appointment of the new public body, Dr. Mustafa said: ‘President Abbas’s executive decision to form a public body of 30 members is judicious and reinforces that he is eagerly enthusiastic to oversee the continuation of work that the Fund has diligently instituted, as well as provide the guidelines for the Fund, working with utmost transparency’.” This PIF press release can be read in full here.
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Q: Do you know the Edward Said story about the Oslo negotiations?

A: Yeah, I don’t know about it, but I don’t agree with the logic of the late Edward Said.

Q: This is a story he tells about sitting with the late Yasser Arafat, and he was arguing against Oslo, and they were talking.  Said told Arafat, “You weren’t even prepared for the negotiations” … At one point, Yasser Arafat said, Safed – where is Safed?

A: Ah, come on, this is not true.  The late Yasser Arafat knows where Safed is, very well.  We were always saying that, as a joke.  He had two people from the Central Committee of Fatah that come from Safed, one of them is Haidar Abdel Hamid, the other is Mahmoud Abbas…And he knows, and they always make a joke about it, when he was counting, and saying “From Jerusalem, from Gaza, from Nablus, from Hebron, from, from, from…” And, you know, and he left Safed for the end.  And people said, it was because Mr. Mahmoud Abbas was not there, otherwise it could have been said right after Al-Quds”… You see what I mean.  Yasser Arafat definitely knows where Safed is.  With all due respect to both of them – they are maybe both in heaven now – but as far as I am concerned, the two late, one a leader, one an intellectual, and this story is not 100 percent correct.

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Q:  So, can I come to the question that (X)  wants me to ask you?

A:  No, I’m not going to answer.

Q:  Because, we were talking about it, and I didn’t know that he knew you, and he said that I was completely wrong, and had the wrong impression, and I should ask you myself.  So, I guess, that’s why I’m here.  It was actually in relation to another problem, which was RAM-FM and Sky Advertising, which is your brother’s company, and not yours.

A:  It’s not my brother’s company – he’s …

Filed under: Boundaries & Borders, Egypt, Gaza, Global Economy, Law of the Sea Convention, Palestine & Palestinians, Qatar